Curse

Kegen · May 10, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I've been lurking around these forums for a while and it's fairly obvious that most people think the ranger class is due for a balance in PvE even if just a little (generalizing here). And I too feel that Anet has given the cold shoulder to the class when looking at the list of past updates.

So it got me wondering, why hasn't the dev team made at least a few small changes if not a large update like the dervish class received? Nothing overly dramatic but tweak a skill or two that is almost never used so everyone can scurry around making some new builds and enjoy variety.

No doubt a lot of this is purely speculation. But I am always impressed with the bits of information the community can gleam out of interviews and updates that I usually miss.

My guesses:
1) They lack time to make large class changes so it's rare to see (on the other hand, they do have time to make other changes to other classes, so why not a little ranger interest).

2) They feel that other classes get far less play, so they make them more attractive (I heard this was the case with Dervish).

3) They lost the booklet of ranger skills and interactions and now are pretending it doesn't exist to save face.

Thanks,
Kegen

Xsiriss · May 10, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Unfortunately a there's a very vocal minority (and I mean a minority) of whiny PvPers that somehow always get a say in on ranger love threads who scream that they're still op. A lot of the balancing is PvP centred in the first place and unless every player constantly nags them to rejuvenate a class it won't happen (still hasn't for paragons).

bitchbar player · May 10, 2011, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Imo, rangers are just fine, not every class needs to do high damage, otherwise they could just take one class and copy everything, rename the skills and be done. Anet gave all ready in with mesmers which is not a class that should do big numbers and dervishes in the last update. Rangers are more about condition spreading, interuption and survivability. But hey that is just my look on things.

Skyy High · May 10, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Unfortunately a there's a very vocal minority (and I mean a minority) of whiny PvPers that somehow always get a say in on ranger love threads who scream that they're still op. A lot of the balancing is PvP centred in the first place and unless every player constantly nags them to rejuvenate a class it won't happen (still hasn't for paragons).

Oh please, that's not why they don't get buffed. Look at mesmers, their update came with a ton of PvE skill splits. The people who "scream" about s****y "balance" updates that basically just uber-charge bow attacks with damage are, quite often, PvE players sick of the powercreep in this game. Ranger damage is not the real issue, it's the fact that most (if not all) of the ranger's signature mechanics are useless in general PvE or inferior to other profession's mechanics. Traps? Spirits? Preparations? All could use some love. Damage++ suggestions can go to hell.

Captain Bulldozer · May 10, 2011, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitchbar player

Imo, rangers are just fine, not every class needs to do high damage, otherwise they could just take one class and copy everything, rename the skills and be done. Anet gave all ready in with mesmers which is not a class that should do big numbers and dervishes in the last update. Rangers are more about condition spreading, interuption and survivability. But hey that is just my look on things.

Therein lies the heart of the debate. Rangers are good at condition spreading, interruption and survivability. However, in PvE condition spreading and interruption are pretty meh (not to mention the fact that rangers are now outclassed in both of these core abilities by other classes). Survivability in PvE generally should not be done on an individual basis since the highly structured team dynamic gives better options. The "strengths" you listed are good mostly in PvP. As far as PvE goes, rangers could certainly use some love (though Paragons deserve it more and a few other classes could use some as well).

Even though Pets got a nice buff a while back, they still function quite poorly (as pretty much all AI melee does) since they generally take too long to both get to a target and start attacking said target. They generally will not even start attacking a foe until the battle has already begun unless your bring beat mastery skills (which are fairly poor) to change that.

Spirits effects are sometimes useful but the 5 second casting times make them undesirable and traps are close to laughable outside of farming. Add to this the fact that bow damage is rather low and bow attack speeds are higher and you'll be hard pressed to deny that an update is not unreasonable to ask.

Aeronwen · May 10, 2011, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I love my ranger but in pve groupings my team mates don't (luckily for me my guildies are suoerb)

rangers do need some pvp love but tes its not about big numbers - rangers are for intelligent play ^^

chuckles79 · May 10, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Rangers do have a lack of ANET love, but the greatest problem with rangers are the players. This class has amazing multitasking abilities, and can fill multiple roles with ease, and I think many players aren't sure how best to utilize the skills.

While they are cursed with the worst DPS (in prolonged battles) in the game. No other class allows you to bring in one build: condition spreading preparation, multiple target physical damage, 2 interrupt skills, self heal, blocking stance, rez, and one utility PvE only skill.

Rangers have extra armor against elemental damage, protecting them from overpowered HM ele attacks. Using the right skills, you can terra tank with a ranger.

Splinter Barrage with "I am the Strongest) is still the best ranged combo in the game and kills mobs in any area.

The only areas where I would like to see rangers buffed, would be traps and spirits. However that causes problems because AI rangers abuse the hell out of both. This would make a lot of endgame and HM content a lot harder.

Final word, my parents were born in the 50's and both play ranger. They have VQ'd all areas and cleared all missions in the game (HM and NM). They've even beat Duncan together with heroes.

If they can get "MGHSoRM", then are rangers really that abused?

Shorten the recharge time of barrage by 1 second and no one would ever gripe about their ranger again LOL

Xsiriss · May 10, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Oh please, that's not why they don't get buffed. Look at mesmers, their update came with a ton of PvE skill splits...

For a class to even get a look in at being buffed the whole community has to consistently mention it. Ritualists, mesmers and dervish had been drawn attention over a period of years. People are more recently waking up to the fact that rangers are actually pretty mediocre and not that fun to play in PvE due to comparison to these newly buffed classes.

Also the PvE splits were only for things such as increased recharges and tweaked numbers, functionalities remained largely intact and as you pointed out that is what needs buffing for the rangers. Either bow attacks can recieve some number tweaking so rangers can have more of a direct impact as a damage role OR things like preparations and spirits could be reworked. It's simply easier to focus buffing some numbers, though I'd rather they looked at things more tactically.

miriforst · May 10, 2011, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Rangers do have a lack of ANET love, but the greatest problem with rangers are the players. This class has amazing multitasking abilities, and can fill multiple roles with ease, and I think many players aren't sure how best to utilize the skills.

While they are cursed with the worst DPS (in prolonged battles) in the game. No other class allows you to bring in one build: condition spreading preparation, multiple target physical damage, 2 interrupt skills, self heal, blocking stance, rez, and one utility PvE only skill.

Rangers have extra armor against elemental damage, protecting them from overpowered HM ele attacks. Using the right skills, you can terra tank with a ranger.

Splinter Barrage with "I am the Strongest) is still the best ranged combo in the game and kills mobs in any area.

The only areas where I would like to see rangers buffed, would be traps and spirits. However that causes problems because AI rangers abuse the hell out of both. This would make a lot of endgame and HM content a lot harder.

Final word, my parents were born in the 50's and both play ranger. They have VQ'd all areas and cleared all missions in the game (HM and NM). They've even beat Duncan together with heroes.

If they can get "MGHSoRM", then are rangers really that abused?

Shorten the recharge time of barrage by 1 second and no one would ever gripe about their ranger again LOL

As usual the problem of class affection isn't a matter of what you can do, heroes ensured that you can theoretically run around without armor while spamming frenzy and healing signet and achieving god walking among mere mortals. I for one mostly play it because well, it's my main. When i want things done i go mesmer.

Barrage does not win the game, panic does (dual wastrels and mistrust blows the crap out of every living thing

).

FoxBat · May 10, 2011, 08:55 PM // 20:55

There are two parts I'm convinced:

1) Server statistics that objectively show how much play a class sees. Mesmers were especially quite low on this totem. Eles (that use ele skills) remain popular despite their uselessness, conversely Ether Renewal is not nerfed because people still rely on monks for whatever inexplicable reason.

2) Having some ideas how to make a class useful. Dervs weren't even doing their intended thing at all so they were reworked to do so. However bad paras are, what builds you do play are definitely about buffing allies with shouts, and simply buffing those leads to the same old balance conundrums.

Keep in mind the dervish update was started under Lindsey's watch. Stumme likely has different priorities, hence he probably does not consider a dervish (or mesmer) sized rework worth the time.

Xiaquin · May 10, 2011, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kegen

My guesses:
1) They lack time to make large class changes so it's rare to see (on the other hand, they do have time to make other changes to other classes, so why not a little ranger interest).

2) They feel that other classes get far less play, so they make them more attractive (I heard this was the case with Dervish).

3) They're just glad they work in PvP and there's only room for one OP ranged profession in PvE.

It's a little of 1, 2 is simply not true and I fixed #3 for you.

AndrewSX · May 10, 2011, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

There are two parts I'm convinced:

1) Server statistics that objectively show how much play a class sees. Mesmers were especially quite low on this totem. Eles (that use ele skills) remain popular despite their uselessness, conversely Ether Renewal is not nerfed because people still rely on monks for whatever inexplicable reason.

When the PuGs becamed the meter to look at the current profs conditions?

[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind the dervish update was started under Lindsey's watch. Stumme likely has different priorities, hence he probably does not consider a dervish (or mesmer) sized rework worth the time.[/QUOTE]

Seems that they won't do any other massive update to profs, which is quite disappointing. Don't think that Rangers are where they should, neither do Paras or Eles. At least for the 1st and the 3rd a LARGE update is needed imo, not just some fix.

Kegen · May 10, 2011, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

It's a little of 1, 2 is simply not true and I fixed #3 for you.

How did the natural range of a bow get outranked by spirits throwing globs of goo? Sad sad world....

FoxBat · May 10, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

When the PuGs becamed the meter to look at the current profs conditions?

Pretty damn hard to find mesmers in guilds/alliances at the time either. (And not particularly elite/SC ones.) By the same token eles were always everywhere.

[email protected]!k3 · May 10, 2011, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Well, I do agree that rangers are pretty much becoming obsolete compared to other classes, but why are we even comparing them to other classes? Each class has their own uniqueness and niches, but that doesn't necessarily justify that they have to be good at it. For example, Monks are primarily looked as the "go-to" healer when forming parties, but as many of us know; Ritualist make excellent healers and that goes double Necros, not to mention ER Elementalist is probably the best prot spamming build out there. If you feel that the class is lacking, that's one thing, but don't go comparing them to other classes, its apples to oranges.

I see that some people feel that Barrage+Splinter is one of the best ranger builds out there, I agree. The thing is though that builds don't necessarily need to be only ranger skills, and even if Splinter is what gives the build all its "umph", like other say; its not about numbers. Barrage is perfectly capable than just chaining with OP rit skills. Have you tried para shouts+Barrage? I'm not saying they're the best ideas, but you guys know that there's a whole lot of other possible builds out there and not all of them are going to be as powerful as a VoS Derv, or a SoS Rit. The ranger isn't meant for mass damage like that, sure there are some creative builds out there that exceed and abuse the profession's original use, but hell, most of the time those get old and pasty. You know why spirits, traps, and preparations aren't used? Its because people don't bother to use methods that maybe sub-par to other builds and its these people that make the profession look bad. Traps aren't bad I still farm UW by myself and a hero with trap, aware that there are superior builds, but that doesn't bother me 'cause I know it works.

Before you think that a class needs a total work-over, try them out thoroughly and see if you like their efficiency, don't compare them to other classes. A ranger is meant for high spikes, condition spreading, and single-physical-target 'rupts (not spells). They have more armor than mesmers, better energy management, and a wide array of bows that can uniquely benefit situations.

And if there's any class that deserves to be revamped its the Paragon. It was fine at first, but Anet's hammer came and crushed them. Now that's a class where it can't even synergize with itself, so don't say that Rangers are inferior, at least they have synergy with other classes, have decent builds, and have the benefit of being a CORE class; meaning they have 3x the armor, skills, weapons, etc..

joseph Mckennie · May 10, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I honestly have absolutely NO problems with my ranger in PVE or PVP. Especailly PVP. I love my ranger. The biggest problem I see is that people are too reluctant to leave the meta mentality that all a PVE ranger can do is the mediocre splinter barrage, or pull off an SoS if a rit isn't available. The things you see on PVX wiki arent the only builds out there. The ranger has been around since proph, and has a huge variety of skills at their disposal. My ranger (with admittedly poor-to-mediocre energy management) has EXCELLENT point damage, or can make an invincible pet that deals unblockable damage, gives me perfect e-management, and deal 140+ (unblockable) damage with brutal strike+46 or so health stealing. (for the sake of full disclosure, it is hard to make enemies focus on your pet, and not just kill the source, which is you, making pet builds less than optimal sometimes) Rangers by no means are weaker than other classes. Theyre certainly not "OP", but since Ive been using my ranger more than all of my other charas for the past...almost a year, I've seen at least most of what a ranger can do. And they can do a lot.

Xiaquin · May 10, 2011, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph Mckennie

I honestly have absolutely NO problems with my ranger in PVE or PVP. Especailly PVP. I love my ranger. The biggest problem I see is that people are too reluctant to leave the meta mentality that all a PVE ranger can do is the mediocre splinter barrage, or pull off an SoS if a rit isn't available.

Rangers by no means are weaker than other classes... I've seen at least most of what a ranger can do. And they can do a lot.

First of all, PvP is not the issue, everyone knows they're effective there. Secondly, it's not that the ranger is incapable of providing support, it's just so slow, antiquated and weak by many measures. They can still get the job done, that's not the problem, it's that they're working with rock and tree while other professions have flying cars and flamethrowers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kegen

How did the natural range of a bow get outranked by spirits throwing globs of goo? Sad sad world....

High-value, campaign-exclusive professions like sin, rit, derv get buffed (with paragon on deck) while ranger, ele, even the warrior sit in silence? I see what they're doing there.

*slips into bomb blast suit*

ShaneOfMach · May 10, 2011, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I want my ranger damage to be as strong as ranger mobs in hardmode.

+100 damage per barrage please.

joseph Mckennie · May 10, 2011, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I know PVP wasnt the issue. I at least read that much. The examples I made were only used in PVE. Theres no way I'm bringing a pet into PVP, since people will just ignore it anyways :/ But I don't see where they're weak or slow. Once again, they do their jobs just as effectively as any other class does it's job. A ranger can do well enough with a "gimmicky" build that spams mass damage, even though most people wouldn't know it. But a ranger was probably really designed to be support, more than anything else. keeping that in mind, i think a ranger far exceeds its purpose. They're decent enough interrupters, especially with BHA (albeit not as good as mesmers), theyre great at spamming coniditions, which is more effective than people give it credit for in PVE, traps can be used VERY efficiently, if you can find someone with the patience for it, and like I said already (in PVE) they can do excellent point damage. And even spread damage with the aforementioned splinter-barrage generi-build from wiki. Barrage alone is the ideal support skill. You can spread damage or a number of strange conditions. They're survivable enough, as is evidenced by how annoyingly difficult it often is to kill the rangers in NF that block 120% of melee attacks (slight exaggeration

) and have the highest resistance to elemental damage. I really dont see the problem :/ Is it because they cant stand in the middle of a mob and reduce all damage to 0? Because thats pretty much a warrior's and dervishes job. They can't spam hexes? We have other classes for that too. Can't raise minions? Like someone mentioned before...maybe the issue is trying to compare completely unrelated classes. But as far as what it can, and is designed to do, a ranger is fine. It can be every bit as capable of dealing degeneration as a monk is capable of healing. Or every bit as capable of making strong point damage as a mesmer is capable of making an enemy kill itself. The only thing I think the ranger NEEDS improvement on in PVE is nature rituals. But people seem to get by just fine without those...
< edit>
On a side note, I kind of agree that non-core classes are getting more attention than some of the core classes, even though the core classes really do need it. Especially the poor ele, who does next to 0 damage in HM, thanks to the enemies +243894829348209 elemental resistance, making air magic the only viable option for damage.

chuckles79 · May 11, 2011, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph Mckennie

On a side note, I kind of agree that non-core classes are getting more attention than some of the core classes, even though the core classes really do need it. Especially the poor ele, who does next to 0 damage in HM, thanks to the enemies +243894829348209 elemental resistance, making air magic the only viable option for damage.

If you don't understand the attention, then I give you the paragon. 16 elite skills, and only 2 make any sense for a human to bring in any situation. A class so gimped by heavy-handed, pre-split nerfs that there is NO build that is all para skills on wiki and outside of Factions' CMs there is no reason you would ever want one.

If you want to buff rangers, you have oodles of skills to work with. Rangers are weak, rebuff IA, or any of the other attack skills. Dying too quickly, buff escape or other stances.

With less "canvas" to work with, it takes a more deft touch to make non-core classes more playable. Look how long it took for dervish and look at the quick rollback on some skills.

Rangers are just fine, and if they are lacking then maybe a slight tweak to a few skills would fix everything.

Definitely does not need a major reworking like the last three.